e3 Invitational Impressions

Draft
1. Peachyhime – Villager
2. Hungrybox – Kirby
3. DJ Nintendo – Bowser
4. Milktea – Pikachu
5. Zero – Zero Suit Samus
6. Hugs – Megaman
7. PPMD – Fox
8. Toph – Pit
9. Crismas – Zelda
10. Ken – Marth
11. PewPewU – Mario
12. MacD – Greninja
13. aMSa – Olimar
14. KoreanDJ – Rosalina
15. Lilo – Wii Fit Trainer
16. Rapture – Little Mac

Old Melee

L-Cancel – doesn’t seem to be in
Wavedashing – Definitely no
Shield Drop – Yes
Short Hop – Yes

Old Brawl Techniques
Run, Turnaround is doable
DACUS – No one could do it
Glide tossing – None
Laser Lock – similar to Falco Laser lock, We managed it with Pikachu

Edge Mechanics
- Invulnerability depends on a combination of:
o %
o Air Time
o Distance recovered
- No Edgehogging
o If you hold ledge, and someone else wants it after, you get kicked off
- After kickoff, lag before you can do an action
- Brawl Ledge grab -> Run, turnaround grab ledge
- Ledge regrab doesn’t give invulnerability
- Run off stage -> somersault/tumble motion XX(cancellable) into action
- Run off stage -> grab edge in tumble (only certain characters)

Throwing
- Delay after throwing someone. Really hard to follow up
- No grab release infinites
- Mashing is doable *Unconfirmed*

Dashing
- Dash dancing is impossible
- Crouching to cancel dashing is impossible
- Pivot tilts are easy. Foxtrot is possible (F-Smash out of fox trot).
- Pivot F-smash is also doable
- Dashing is really questionable in this game
- U-Smash out of dash really easy (Flick C-stick)
- Standing grab out of full dash (shield+A, or shield + up cstick)

Spike
- Really Strong,

Crouch Cancel
- None

Shields
- No lightshielding
- Tilt shield is available

Out of Shield
- U-Smash out of shield very doable (Tested with Fox, same input as Melee)
- Shield grab available

Spot Dodge
- Really solid option

Air Dodge
- Multiple in one jump
- Air dodge -> land = massive lag

Meteor Cancel
- Meteor cancel is available, seems difficult to execute (TV lag?)

Techs
- Buffer wall techs

DI
- Smash DI is not in (Tested with smart bombs) or significantly less than Melee? More testing needed
- DI is somewhat noticeable

Camera
- Doesn’t scale that well with people on edges/off-stage very well

Controls
- Charge C-Stick –> smash attack charges

Character Specific
Mario (PewPewU)
- Fairly intuitive, similar to Melee/Brawl Mario
- Two aerials in one short hop
- Brawl D-Air
- Fair has two hit boxes (spike, non spike)

Fox (PPMD)
- Lag after shine
- No brawl cancel shine
- Short Hop laser = lag on land
- Up-Smash is nerfed (People lived at 110%, hitbox is smaller)
- Brawl Bair, Brawl Fair
- Brawl D-Throw
- Up+B is still great (Melee NTSC levels)

Marth
- Auto cancel BAIR is really good
- No short hop 2x FAIR
- Sluggish compared to Melee

Little Mac
- Super armor

Pikachu
- Quick Attack has massive lag on landing (Not sure if you can )

Top tier
- Kirby
- Pit

High Tier
- Wii Fit Trainer
- Villager
- Zero Suit Samus
- Mario

Mid Tier
- Pikachu
- Sonic
- Fox
- Megaman
- Marth
- Greninja

Low Tier
- Bowser
- Zelda

Bottom Tier
- Little Mac (for FFA, TERRIBLE). Might be god-like on FD

- Olimar

- Rosalina
- Donkey Kong
- Link

116 thoughts on “e3 Invitational Impressions

  1. DI is only “some what noticeable”?No Smash DI? weeeelp

  2. Is ledgecancel in the game??

  3. No dash dancing = no hope.

    Maybe they’ll get in right in 7 more years or so.

    I don’t know why they seem hellbent on limiting mobility in a game that is all about it. ??

    • “No dash dancing = no hope.”
      Can’t really agree with this. Dashing is almost always your fastest way of moving on the ground, yes? It also tends to lower your hurtbox in comparison to standing, right? With the ability to instantly cancel movement in a direction, go the other one, block (and anything that can be done out of that), or jump immediately, along with pivoting into any attack you want (which is in all the games), and do it over and over as much as you want, what is the point in walking? Perhaps you like sharply moving exactly as you input, and that’s understandable, but as a mechanic, it just punishes people for actually committing to anything.
      I am not calling dash dancing a bad mechanic. I can understand liking the instant stop nature of dash dancing compared to walking and turning around. It’s like preferring Megaman movement to Mario movement for platformers, or CS 1.6 walking to CS:S walking for shooters. Completely understandable, this is the more immediately responsive form of motion. However, moving in the “less responsive” manner is both more realistic, and makes it an action with a bit more commitment. In a fighting game (which Smash is) adding options with no commitment has real consequences. Aside from giving already advantaged fast characters a bigger one, since it makes dash an entirely better option in a neutral situation than almost everything, it makes the neutral, which is a big part of any fighter, more one dimensional (especially considering how it can be easily cancelled immediately and at any time with any defensive option, or an un-blockable attack that doesn’t trade on top of being your fastest movement option that can also be cancelled by itself). Again, not saying it’s bad, but it’s largely preference, people learn to work momentum to their advantage, and people can get very precise with or without it (it’s obviously harder with it), but the mechanic isn’t entirely healthy for the game as a fighter (though it’s really nice as an option to punish say, a shield grab after you hit a shield, note how in this situation, you’d probably only go back and forth once. This is one of the only common places it would help the person who made the first move).
      “I don’t know why they seem hellbent on limiting mobility in a game that is all about it. ??” The issue here is, that isn’t what the game is, it’s a fighter platformer hybrid. This is the final point. Is dash dancing really the part about the game that lets you enjoy it? How much do you appreciate the nature of how strings work in Smash where you have your more standard set in stone strings like Melee Falco dairing and shining, while still reacting to the way the opponent launched due to their DI, or the kinds of combinations where people don’t have anything planned out, and are just reacting the entire time (for instance, any Armada combo ever, or like, everything Mr. R does in Brawl)? Even if the strings aren’t important to you, don’t you at least enjoy the nature of platform movement in a fighter? Where your directional inputs actually matter after having entered the air, instantly increasing the complexity of anti-airing someone, along with the ability to jump more than one height. Let’s not forget how even on the most basic level of control, the degree to which you input a direction actually matters. To me, these things make Smash a unique game, and on their own a more fun experience than more traditional fighters.

      Of course, this is more about how dash dancing appeared in Melee than what it potentially could be, if there were actual down sides to doing it instead of walking or standing, or you could only do it 2 or 3 times in a row, I’d probably have no issue with it. And yes, I think the good, non-character specific things lost with dash dancing are bigger than say, wave-dashing, so long as dropping shield by releasing the button is faster than it was in Melee.

      More related to the actual article. Try testing Smash DI with other things, it was ridiculously easy to Smash DI Smart bombs in Brawl, so they might have just nerfed that to make them better. Since this game appears to be more Brawl-like than Melee-like to some people here, note that there’s a large variance in Smash DI multipliers among moves in Brawl in comparison to Melee. That might be what you’re experiencing. If there really is none at all, I’m legitimately bothered by that.

      • Needs to be a way to shrink these or make them wider, lol.

      • nobody cares…

      • Thanks for the insight.

      • You make some interesting points and I like how you’ve thought things out from a different perspective. Some counterpoints though:

        1. Dashdancing acts as part of the “mix-up” game, which is a key component in fighters. One of the primary ways that mix-up games exist in traditional fighters is with the high-mid-low hit level system, but that doesn’t exist in Smash. Dashdancing is one of the substitutes for it. For example, if you dash forward and attempt to grab, your opponent can beat it with a spot dodge. You can mix this up by baiting the spot dodge with a dash forward, dashdancing away, and then back forward to punish the lag on the spot dodge.

        2. Dashdancing does involve commitment. It uses frames, 8 to 16 of which, depending on the character, cannot be canceled by dashdancing itself (but can by shielding or jumping). It also involves placement of your character, and any time you are placing your character closer to your opponent’s, you are placing yourself at potential risk. Dashdancing is evasive, but you are neither shielding nor attacking while doing it, which is its own form of vulnerability. In some matchups, particularly Marth vs. Falcon, dashdancing excessively is actually risky on Marth’s side of the matchup.

        3. It is preference, and players will learn to manage without it and play the game however it actually is, as evidenced by Brawl and non-Smash fighting games. The “it is preference” line is actually more damning than it is neutralizing though. I would strongly prefer my Smash games with dashdancing than without, because the ones with dashdancing are a lot of fun, while the ones without are really not.

      • If viable dash-dancing was in Brawl it would have a weakness. You wouldn’t be able to shield. They could do that for this game. Being able to move is kinda more important for a game like smash anyway where you have stages with platforms and stuff

      • @Andrew C: This was more about there being more to the games than just the movement, but still.

        The way you put it, yes, dash-dance beats someone spot-dodging if they were expecting a dash-grab. It also beats pressing any button, even if many are not as solidly beaten as the spot dodge. It also beats every approach, often better than just blocking would have.

        There was a massive explanation before this I deleted, frames and all, but in short: Outside of jabs and a few tilts, most attacks are fairly laggy, and most can be reacted to. Most attacks also don’t involve moving, much less controlling your movement (there’s some special moves, and aerials basically, but aerials moving forward or used too far from an auto-cancel height or the ground are unsafe, the “safe” ones risk raw anti-air more, and the specials are mostly unsafe), as a result, you are confined to a certain position while using them while someone who hasn’t pressed a button isn’t, and with dash-dancing, they use what’s generally the fastest movement option to perfectly position themselves. There aren’t gigantic hitboxes that come out quickly, you can’t block forever, and any option that can be done out of shield, if not punishable out of a dash-dance (by actual human reaction), will involve giving up position, and be at some kind of disadvantage in terms of frames compared to dash-dancing (as well as doing nothing). You can’ really call it a commitment if you can block instantly, and any oos option by extension. All pivot options are just icing on the cake.
        The best option to counter dash-dancing is dash-dancing back, will some potential room for certain moves that auto-cancel (mostly projectiles). There’s virtually no downside to dash-dancing at any given point outside of the range of someone’s jab if both people are on stage, other than the fact that at that exact moment, you’re not hitting the opponent, firing a projectile, or safely charging say, Samus’s charge shot. All of those things, other than charging Samus’s charge shot (which you can do safely whenever they’re not onstage) can be done pretty much instantly out of it. Yes, you shouldn’t be dash-dancing if your opponent’s shield somehow broke, but there’s really not a lot of spots where it isn’t good to be doing it is the point. There’s serious downsides to using other defensive options when no attack was thrown out.

    • Dash dancing is my whole game in Melee and in PM. This game has almost no movement options and they kept brawls dash game on top of that? Cmon Nintendo, at least have dash dancing if you’re not willing to put anything else back in. I think if they made it so that your airdodge goes farther the closer you are to the stage and the lag for performing it goes down the farther away from the stage you are, that’s the best of both worlds. (and can’t be too hard to program)

      • Time to learn a new game & strategy. It’s called evolving. If you can’t do that, you get left behind. In any game, in any sport.

    • No dash dancing= 100% hope of being better then melee

      (I saw some dash dancing in a ssb4 best buy video… but maybe it’s just useless)

  4. Just play. The. Game.

  5. They talked about having less lag time when air dodging to the ground, creating a semi wave dash, which sounds pretty cool, utilizing both the benefits of brawl’s airdodge and melee’s.

  6. man… some of those are pretty intense nerfs…..

    • Time to make our own. Meet me in the basement in five. Bring your notes on every game mechanic worthy of note, every attack in all games, and Seth Killian’s domination 101. We’re gonna start from scratch and leave beloved Nintendo behind, and we aren’t spending any dev time on subspaces or trophies or god damned toads. We’re gonna make a fighter.

  7. Bowser is listed twice, I think you mean Mega Man.
    And I agree, Mega Man seems REALLY low tier.

    • Megaman looks like one of the strongest in my opinion…(with the several weapons and op tilt moves)

  8. Wow, this is worse than expected. Definitely not targeted towards me. I’m sure it will be loads of fun to new players though! :D

    • Melee and 64 were also amazing for new players.

      • Uh, that’s the point. All the Smash games are fun for new players, but not all of them are fun for competitive players, especially those who already have a competitive Smash background.

  9. What is the basis for listing Kirby as top tier (he’s my fav but after melee and brawl I’m sceptical). zero suit seems like a tough contender as well, though zero only one because of sudden death, he knew he couldn’t win otherwise.

    • He chickened out at the end so badly. Hate that defensive gameplay of the new Smash4.

      • As much as I hate the sound of some of these changes, part of the reason for that final match (particularly final stock) being so defensive oriented boils down to the tournament rules being not optimal for a good set.

        Grand Finals was only one match instead of five, but even three would have worked and probably would have worked out better. And the victor was determined by sudden death, not by percentage. So if you’re playing against that Kirby, who has much lower percent than you and a godly kill throw, and you simply don’t have the option to outplay him in two more matches…you do what you can to bring the match to sudden death, where your chances of winning suddenly bolt up much higher because both players are now at kill percent rather than just one.

        That ending was lame, and that’s coming from someone who was actually enjoying the match up till the last stock. But I don’t think we ever should have expected this to properly represent Smash 4 meta to begin with, given that it was the first time anyone had played the game and that the tournament simply wasn’t set up for that.

  10. Brawl 2.0. Looked super wack. Sakurai is so determined to eliminate combos and mobility. He’s in denial about Brawl being shitty.

  11. Tourneyfags getting blown the fuck out by sakurai HIMSELF

  12. when did miom become a dumping grounds for trolls LOL

    • First of all, it’s obvious Sakurai isn’t interested in catering to the tournament crowd, which is a miniscule part of the playerbase. He said as much. Secondly, why not find another game, if this one bothers you so much? Play a more established tournament fighting game rather than trying to hijack the heir apparent to the king of mascot fighters. I have no objections to tournament play, considering that I myself have played Smash competitively, but Jesus Christ, adapt to the game mechanics please. If you want Melee with roster updates, go play Project M or something, but I for one am not interested in such rehash. That’s essentially what Activision does with Call of Duty, and I know that everyone in here would agree with me.

      • “Why not find another game”?

        Because there aren’t that many games like Smash beyond Smash itself. Even the Smash knock-offs like that Ninja Turtles and Playstation All-stars game play very differently. And that’s not even getting into traditional fighters.

        You say you aren’t interested in a rehash. Haven’t you noticed how this game has been called Brawl 2.0 by those who played it? Except even Brawl’s paltry list of advance techs have been removed. Sounds more like you just want to spite the Melee community rather than encourage every Smash game be new if you’re going to turn a blind eye to this game being like Brawl.

      • No other fighting game offers the freedom of movement and expression that melee offers. I have played pretty much all of them. What keeps melee constantly fresh is the wealth of options both players have at all times. The fact that I am still interacting with my opponent even while I am being combo’d through DI gives me something productive to do constantly.

        Although I do believe that if Nintendo just took project M and updated the graphics for us and shipped it that it would be better than anything they could make. I also think they could make a new game that is less good that is still playable however I choose to play it.

        The thing that bothers me is that Sakurai wants it to be JUST a party game so badly that he would rather remove every chance at playing it another way. No one else can tell me how to enjoy a game. If Smash 4 is like brawl I will play it the same way I played Brawl, 4 players with items as a party game. Lets all be honest 1 vs 1 with no items in brawl was torture. But if all they did was make the movement a little more fluid by adding dash dancing then at least I could maybe have a choice in how I want to play.

        Really having fluid controls that make your character react the way you expect benefits casual players as well, everyone would like to interrupt their dashes, they wouldn’t use it as well as competitive players but they aren’t going to do ANYTHING as well as a tournament level player so who cares. Just make the best game possible, and that game isn’t brawl, I played a 4 person ffa in melee with items the other day, it was a lot of fun, sure I’m good at the game compared to the little kids I was playing it with but they didn’t notice, even when they didn’t win they didn’t care cause its a party game, they aren’t playing to win. But then I can play the game for 10 years with my friends and still have things to improve on to this day.

        I just don’t understand that attitude that a game can’t take skill without ruining it for casual players because that isn’t true. I don’t come and tell you how to play melee or brawl or 64, none of us did. If you come to a melee tournament you are going to lose, if you go to a brawl tournament, even one with items you are going to lose. The depth of the game is not going to affect a casual player but it is whats going to keep people playing a 10 year old game and having as much fun as they did the first time, or in my case even more.

        Thanks,
        Binx

    • @vee yeah no read it again, its COMPARISONS. no one says “this should be in the game” its just “these elements aren’t in the game”

      “this isnt in the game” =/= “this isnt in the game and it should be in the game”

      and whats wrong with a preliminary tier list? every casual and their mother has an opinion on what character is good in any game they touch for more than a minute

    • faget, the comments, which if I am correct to judge, are reflective of the community, suggest otherwise. I said “comments”. And I complain about the tier lists as a competitive player because the other ones took time to make, and here this one was just thrown out there with less consideration, and ultimately a lot less substance than the others. Feels like someone said they had to put up a tier list and they just put this one out in the matter of a few seconds. It’s the portrayal that this tier list means something that I don’t appreciate.

    • the comments are like…maybe 3 trolls trolling around. and us 2 LMAO

      from my own observations, everyones pretty neutral and excited about smash 4

      and yea i see where youre coming from about the tier list but like…the fact that its preliminary and shallow is a given. people will always like to have an idea of things

  13. This is actually constructive feedback. I hope sakurai reads this and the team takes steps to listen to the suggestions they wanted about the game.

    • Don’t get your hopes up. Hes in Japan, this is just some random American fan’s list. Plus most of things there are improvements

  14. Will Nintendo listen to feedback from these players? Is it possible that they will make substantial mechanics changes before release?

  15. Now I realize why half the internet is making fun of you people.

  16. Pretty things like new characters, new stages, and good graphics only carry a game so far. The new features look very nice and Nintendo should be proud of the work they’ve done.

    Can we help it that we wanted more though? Can I help it if I just wanted the ability to move more freely and not feel constrained by what the developer intends?

    Even when I play Brawl in the back of my head, I just remember the freedom I had in Melee to do what I want that I just don’t have in Brawl. Is it so much to at least ask for more meaty gameplay so I can just enjoy a really cool new game with friends? Instead of playing a watered down version of an old game?

    I’ll probably like looking at the shiny new characters, stages, and special gameplay modes for about two weeks. Then the enjoyment fades away because it was built on shallow reasons that don’t appeal to me as much.

  17. 1. A tier list is nothing than opinion based on play. Based on what they discovered in the few hours they touched the game, they made it just give a better idea of what people might expect when they first touch the game. Nothing more or less. No one makes a tier list expecting it to be an end-all-be-all, so don’t cry about it.

    2. They checked off advanced techniques that are not in the game because that is incredibly easy to do and gives info about the game they are playing. Where is the harm in that? They’re just saying the game doesn’t have the old stuff, which is to be expected and it’s nice they bothered confirming for us.

    3. I don’t know why I’m trying to reason with Internet trolls. I probably need sleep.

    • 1. Tier lists in Smash are seen as the end-all by the community if you simply look at any of the smash wikis or smashboards.

      2. Yes, but people in the comments have proceeded to start shit about how bad it is that they aren’t in, prompting the response from others.

      3. Troll is a convenient word for people with a separate viewpoint. Quit it.

      • 1. if you look at ACTUAL players discussing tiers, you find huge variance in opinions. it is by no means end-all…at all

        2. the comments are anonymous and thus shit (me included btw. please ignore me im a faget)

        3. separate viewpoint =/= trolling, trolling = intentionally trying to aggravate people. pretty clear distinction

      • 1. We can agree to disagree, speculation is entirely the basis of opinion, I’m just not a fan right now

        2. Still anonymous or not they’re somebody’s opinion. It’s on this website, therefore the community here is the one to take credit. Not much else you can do.

        3. Agreed, but the definition is too subjective and the term has lost its meaning.

      • 1. All I see on tier list discussions are noobs, so I tend to ignore them. In general, tier list discussions are chaotic business but the most reasonable members understand that tier lists are based on a very malleable metagame.

        2. If you’re responding to the shit stupid people post, why can’t I do the same?

        3. No, troll is a word for people calling the community faggots lol

      • Nice to see we agree on one and two Mac, but usually real trolling doesn’t involve slinging insults. That’s just stupidity.

    • dude you are like the only one that gets it everyone else just complain about how people are “meleefags” because they are telling us the game lost all competitive aspects and how the game changed thats not bad

      • Lots of people asked us for our opinion in regards to who we thought was good. This was our honest opinion. I don’t get how you can imply that we’re trying to cater to Melee through creating a tier list. For the people who are, you’re reading too much into intentions that are entirely baseless

  18. >mfw people, in THE YEAR 2014, 10 YEARS AFTER THE GAME’S RELEASE, still believe that wavedashing and cancelling are glitches.

    Are you kidding me? How would cancelling be a glitch? Tell me, how would you even manage to mess up a few lines of code so bad that pushing a button would cancel an animation? You can’t. You can’t do that just on accident. “Whoops guys sorry i accidentally left in a glitch that changes the whole game”. No, just no. I can understand where you’re coming from with wavedashing though. Many people thought it was a glitch until Sakurai himself told us that it was part of the physics engine, not a glitch. He said that he knew about wavedashing long before the game was released but decided not to “fix” it because it wasn’t broken. In the case of Brawl and Sm4sh, they didn’t “fix” anything, they deliberately changed the mechanics to make the game more casual. I still will enjoy Kerfuffle though, no doubt. But to say that those were glitches is preposterous.

    • “cancel an animation”

      It doesn’t even do this! It does in 64, but in Melee, it actually doubles the speed of the recovery animation. So Link would pull his sword out twice as fast.

      I can’t even fathom how somebody would think you could accidentally code in speeding up the animation after pressing a button in a certain frame window.

    • …..chaining hits in street fighter was first discovered as a glitch of cancelling animations, game altering glitches aren’t all that ridiculous.

  19. I just don’t understand why you guys get mad all the time about Melee players wanting a new Smash competitive game.

    It’s not about having a new Melee with some HD graphics and new characters. It’s just about having a video game that can be both fun and technical.

    Melee was the perfect mix for that. You could play it casually, or being a hardcore gamer. You had a choice and the game was really incredible to allow you to do that.

    Unfortunately, since Brawl was released, the game is just slower, and lacks a lot of depth. You can have fun playing it as a casual player, but the choices made by Nintendo to add some randomness to a fighting game… it’s wrong. It’s just about making a video game with no challenge at all, easier, like a lot of Nintendo games which were released on Wii.

    Why avoiding the hardcore gamer community? Nintendo CAN make a game which can be both casual and competitive. Why adding so much randomness? Is Nintendo afraid of competitive multiplayer?

    If Capcom had corrected all the glitches in Street Fighter II, instead of realizing how much the game was SO better with the new mechanics created, the fighting game genre would not be that good today.

    You guys should understand why Melee players are so disappointed about the game. Okay, you play the game like a casual gamer, and I perfectly understand that. But why so much hate? Smash can be BOTH competitive and casual.

    PS: English is not my mother tongue. So please be cool.

    • I understand what you are saying but to say that Brawl isn’t a competitive game at all is just silly. Brawl just played differently and it required you to learn a new set of mechanics which isn’t a bad thing. I greatly enjoyed playing both Brawl and Melee and played both in a competitive fashion. Tripping is the only true complaint I accept on Brawl being non-competitive and that isn’t going to be in the new one so I don’t see the problem.

      To totally disregard this new game just because it doesn’t play exactly like Melee is an unfortunate thing I think.

      To keep with the theme of competitive Nintendo games I look at Mario Kart. The Mario Kart community, while not as large as the Smash community, handled it the right way I think. When snaking was removed from the series they didn’t just abandon any future releases and instead adapted to the new play styles featured in Mario Kart Wii. Even now they are finding new advanced techniques in Mario Kart 8 such as Fire Hopping and short burst turbos.

      I feel that instead of complaining that the new Smash isn’t exactly like Melee and abandoning it, that time could be better served finding new advanced techniques and play styles that work in the new game. That would help expand the richness and longevity of the series as a whole.

      • Brawl is competitive. Every game is competitive, but Melee is just way more.

        Let’s put it this way.

        I’m a competitive player of rock-paper-scissors. You are also. We get to fight. You win 5 times and I win 5 times. We had fun. We never play it again because its too simple.

        I’m a competitive player of checkers. You are also. We get to fight. You win 100 times and I win 100 times. We had fun. We never play it again because its too simple. or perhaps we might try it but just for fun, 1 time.

        I’m a competitive player of checkers. You are also. We get to fight. You win 10,000 times and I win 10,000 times. We had fun for years. We never play it again because we are too old/died.

        Where do you have more fun? It depends which one you like more. But where you spend more time there is a higher possibility to have more fun. So my guess is chess. Just don’t play with a chess master competitively if you dont want to be disappointed/pawned badly.

      • There are a lot of reasons why Brawl is seen as less competitive than Melee, because it has a whole league of broken elements that actively go against fair play and skillful play. It’s not just “no wavedashing” or some other move.

        http://pastebin.com/pJt3J0Wu

        People have spent years learning and analyzing and playing Brawl to find some possible competitive potential or angle, but there’s not much there. If this game is possibly removing even more mechanics, then what can be done, really?

      • Someone on smash hoards said that you play melee with your hands you play brawl with your brain. They are almost right. You play melee with your hands and your brain. Some would argue with your heart. You don’t play that game. You fight. In brawl you try and figure out how can I win? What’s the best route? The path of least resistance? In melee you find out every path is pretty rough, and either pull up your boots and go battle or bow out on a count of some cramps because it looks to hard.

  20. I hate how some people think its not a bad thing Sakurai doesnt want to impress the competitive scene because its such a small percentage of the player base. The competitive scene brings so much to the game. It brings camaraderie, hype, and longevity to any game. besides the competitive side of the player base, all you have left is some people paying together in thier living room with their brother and sister that plays every once in a while

  21. Neither of those were glitches… L canceling was programmed into melee And sakurai said the ability to slide after an air dodge was also left in there in an interview. Yes he did not realize what we would do with it in the future making wave-dashing more of an exploit, but it was part of the game nonetheless.

  22. they removed so many of the competitive elements of brawl, which already was not a competitive game.. damn.

    • It’s like Sakurai was watching a Brawl tournament one day and thought, “Huh, they still managed to make this game competitive… let’s see what mechanics they’re using to do this!”

      And then proceeded to remove all of those mechanics, thinking, “Let’s see you guys make this game competitive!”

  23. Why dont they make melee in HD, make like 10 new stages.. Some new trophys, items and update the singleplayer some and release it on nintendo store? EVERYONE would buy it.. And love it ;)

  24. That’s what I am saying. Smash 4 is also faster than Brawl, even if not by a substantial amount. I don’t understand why Melee smashers need all their “hidden” gimmicks/moves (even Ken said wavedashing isn’t necessary.) It’s like they can’t be competitive unless they have enough tricks in their hat. Take those away (l-canceling, wavedashing, dash dancing) and their entire strategy and play-style is crushed and they can’t adapt and evolve a new one. We call that washed up in the real world. At least some Melee players will play the other Smash’s competitively.

    • Yup, because everyone that likes a good game that also happens to be old is washed up. Just like how Chess players never moved on to a more recent game, what washed up nerds they are. What about all those football (soccer) fans that are playing a CENTURIES old game? Wow, what a bunch of washed up losers right? God, because the copyright date on a video game determines if it’s good enough to play competitively and not the content of the game-play that you want to compete with.

      Also, let’s say you play soccer for a living and the official International league of soccer elites decides to change the rules. They want it so that the fields are even bigger, the nets are smaller, the ball is heavier, you can’t kick the ball higher than one meter off the ground, and the ball can’t be passed more then twice per possession. Would a professional soccer player, someone that’s built their knowledge of the game on skills and strategies for the original version fair well in the new one? Sure, they would have to change and adapt to be competitive in it. Does that mean it’s what they want to do, that they’ll have more fun learning this new version instead of continuing in the old one, or that they are ‘washed up’ if they refuse to put money on the line for rule changes they don’t understand or agree with?

      In other words and more concisely put: Fuck your bad opinion.

    • It’s not even the gimmicks. I just want the game to be fluid. L cancel and wave dashing helps facilitate that. I don’t want lag after using an air move, so I decide to cut it in half with an L cancel. I want more fluid movement than just dashing, so I use wave dashing. I want to actually have control on my character. Brawl is sloppy and plays sloppy. This game carries on Brawl’s legacy of sloppy movements. And who cares what Ken thinks? For every top player (he’s not even a top player anymore) that says wavedashing isn’t “necessry”, there are 2 that would argue other wise. Defend your trashy game if you’d like, but I’ll stick to melee until an actual competitive fighter (not this party game) comes out on the Wii U.

    • You… shouldn’t play like any other fighters. Except for DBZ and naruto. Seriously things that reward people for effort in dexterity and thought, don’t play. There are so many esoterics in every iteration of street fighter compared to smash… which only has so many because of a wonderful legit physics engine.

  25. I would have adapted Brawl competitively if it didn’t have tripping. That was the only thing stopping me. I couldn’t risk a random trip affecting my flow if I were on a streak, especially in a tourny. Otherwise, I gave up wavedashing, l-canceling, dash dancing, etc. pretty easily. A lot of Melee players think these abilities enhance their game when they really don’t.

    • They really improve your gameplay in overall.
      That’s the reason i keep beating my friends. I always tell them that they most learn SHFFL in other to be fast.
      You just have to wait for them to miss a L cancel and big punish them.

  26. It’s funny because C9 and Crs are expecting those players to jump into the Smash 4 hype, and if they don’t they will be passed out silently.

  27. What I found ironic was all the “Melee greats” in the invitational continually getting BTFO. Even more ironic was a player who adopted both Melee and Brawl and was competitive in both came out on top. Woo

    • …you do realize the invitational had nothing to do with skill, right?

      • Blame it on the items, waaaaah. Zero just got lucky. Winning it all, Im sure…

      • Sure, Zero outplayed Hbox in the GFs, if you consider camping and losing (by percent) and then getting a random hit in Sudden Death “outplaying”. Other than that, I have no problems with the GFs; makes sense a Brawl player would come out on top in a Brawl-like game.

        But the free-for-alls with items is HARDLY an indicator of skill in any way at all. I mean, come on, you don’t seriously believe that items and backstabbing make for a fair fight, do you? Unless you actually believe that Zero getting four final smashes in a single match means he’s a great Smash player?

      • Zero didn’t get 4 final smashes every match though. & no, I don’t think items may an “equal” playing field but it sure does give everyone a fair chance at being able to use those items. Hbox camped in the match at the boxing ring stage. It doesn’t really matter… it’s a strategy. You don’t have to go fight the other 3 players just because they choose to… it’s something seen in Smash FFA’s all the time… someone always uses that strategy. & you’re really complaining about a Sudden Death victory? Anyone could have won that, but it just so happens that Zero won all his matches either by luck, skill, what have you. BTW, in the mode where he won by %… well that’s the name of the game in that mode, it’s the other player’s faults for not trying to close that percentage gap.

  28. Zero didn’t get 4 final smashes every match though. & no, I don’t think items may an “equal” playing field but it sure does give everyone a fair chance at being able to use those items. Hbox camped in the match at the boxing ring stage. It doesn’t really matter… it’s a strategy. You don’t have to go fight the other 3 players just because they choose to… it’s something seen in Smash FFA’s all the time… someone always uses that strategy. & you’re really complaining about a Sudden Death victory? Anyone could have won that, but it just so happens that Zero won all his matches either by luck, skill, what have you. BTW, in the mode where he won by %… well that’s the name of the game in that mode, it’s the other player’s faults for not trying to close that percentage gap.

    • “BTW, in the mode where he won by %… well that’s the name of the game in that mode, it’s the other player’s faults for not trying to close that percentage gap.”

      wtf are you even talking about. There was no “percentage mode” in the invitational. Obviously that’s how the game is SUPPOSED to be played, since anybody could have won a sudden death (as you said, and I said in the post before this… are you agreeing with me?). I’m saying Hbox technically won the invitational because he had lower percent at the end.

      I’m not complaining about the sudden death victory, I’m complaining that it decided the winner.

      And I don’t even know why this merits discussion in the first place. It’s a FFA, which means you can largely throw skill out the window in the first place. There’s nothing skillfull about waiting for a player to be indisposed and then hitting him with his pants down.

      The point of this tournament was to showcase the GAME, not the players or their skill, so your comment about Melee players getting beaten or Brawl players doing well is absolutely irrelevant.

    • The statement was that dash dancing is impossible.
      That is not true.

      That being said, brawl DD’ing is DEFINITELY a useful mechanic, but an initial dash increases your chance of tripping, so no one uses it. There is no tripping in smash 4, so it will be a useful mechanic.

    • I love to hear about how “useful” it is, actually. Please enlighten me.

      Even when they modded Brawl to remove tripping, nobody used it. There’s simply no point unless you want a silly mindgame that’s very difficult to perform consistently (just listen to the control stick in that video and compare to the character’s movement). If you mess up, suddenly you’ve thrust yourself at your opponent and are now in turnaround lag, unable to do anything. Great tactic!

      Sorry, but you’re wrong.

      • Actuallyyyyyy it’s not that hard to perform lol. It’s useful because it is a good mixup and gives you the option to run away if they approach or dash grab if they shield expecting a dash attack.

        Or you could shield or jump.

        The point isn’t even about it’s usefulness it’s about the fact that the mechanic exists, and they said it doesn’t.

    • It’s hard enough to perform and not useful enough that nobody does it competitive Brawl. Who are you trying to kid?

      The advantages you mentioned are certainly viable in SSB64 or Melee, but not Brawl (or Sm4sh) since there’s no time to think in between dashes, and you’re only moving in place, unlike the other games where you could stay mobile throughout the length of an entire stride.

      The authors of this article didn’t mean it was impossible in the sense of it being an actual mechanic; they meant it was impossible to be a useful mechanic.

      • Impossible can’t mean bad, It can only mean not possible, which means non existent


  29. 00:50 looks like greninja is dash dancing actually. Don’t take this article as fact. It’s from people who have had mostly a couple of hours with it, and it is an unfinished game.

  30. just how long the grand final took in the invitational shows how slow the game is. Although we have to consider that no one had even played the game before, either, and the tourney settings were stupid.

  31. you are going too deep lol

  32. It would have been nice tyo have some link to a kind of wiki… or the tricks explained.

  33. Pingback: Super Smash Bros. Invitational Tournament E3 2014 All Footage [Video] – 15 Min News.Com

  34. Just saying, Brawl dashdancing is useful and I use it a lot as a single climber (dash dance in someone’s face then grab them) or as MK for different uses.

  35. What you all need to pay attention to is what nearly every major person at the invitational said:

    “Items are what make smash”
    “The crazy action where anything can happen has always been an important part of the series”
    “Luck definitely plays a big part”

    etc. etc.

    These might not be exact quotes (they almost certainly aren’t, but the actual quotes are pretty much the same), but what they mean is that sakurai never wanted or recognized smash as being competitive, and that it was always meant to be played a certain way. Hell, the INVITATIONAL NINTENDO HOSTED THEMSELVES (competitive tournament) had items on and stages with gimmicks/hazards.

    • It may sound backwards but the game creators don’t get to decide what the competitive community wants.

      • It may sound backwards but the minority competitive community doesn’t get to decide what the smash community wants.

        And it certainly doesn’t get to bitch and whine and boycott because nintendo won’t cater to them. You all are cancer and need to leave this franchise alone. I used to like it until you came along. You honestly remind me of bronies with how loud you are; it’s that bad.

    • The things the competitive community wants do not affect the casual community at all.

      Whats the point of taking advanced stuff out of the game? Casual players aren’t going to use it anyway so it doesn’t affect them. Why do something like that that specifically hurts one side of the smash community? All that’s going to do is make the community smaller.

      The casual players want alot of characters, pretty graphics, cool stages, and items. No matter what nintendo does they will still play. Nintendo is “catering” to the casual players needs and they are happy. Why shouldn’t they “cater” to competition too in a way that doesn’t affect the casuals?

      • Because the competitive community is being a bunch of whiny petulant children about it.

        If everyone looked at it the way you (the minority in this community, mind you) did, then nobody would have any problems with them. But no: we’re exposed to the other 5/6ths of the community that riots and bitches and whines and shuns the game and incessantly tweet at sakurai demanding that he put their features in.

        That is why everyone hates most ‘tourneyfags’: most of them are extremist entitled faggots that expect the game to be catered to their standards and go complete apeshit if it isn’t.

      • Wow dunno what’s up with that caper dude. Ive been playing smash for years. And soon after I started I began looking online and long story short… I learned things. I’ve been in a few tourneys, keyword a few… like 3. But I still play all of the time. Am I casual or am I competitive? I prefer melee over brawl. I’ll not lie 90% of the time I play on few stages and with items off. I wavedash l cancel short hop fast fall, jump out to get my kills, dash dance and if I’m marth ill double fair. So what makes a competitive? If I’m playing street fighter and I pull off a combo am I competitive? What if I fadc in that combo? Jump at my opponent/run-stop to fake out my opponent? Is anyone who chooses to take any undeniably competitive game remotely serious a cancer?

        To Caper, get good scrub. GG

  36. Watch this video to see the difference in melee and brawl dash dance. Matt does both in melee. Brawls dash dance makes you stay in place. Melee lets you elongate the stride so you can advance or retreat.

  37. Smash 4 should have items be a mandatory thing, and remove every mechanic from the game so everyone just focuses on the items, because those are all that matter. Stages should also have constant hazards that kill everybody every 10 seconds or so, because that’s what makes games fun.

    Things like faster gameplay, less lag, comboes, etc are pointless and never fun at all. After all, putting skillful mechanics in the game always shuts casual players out, and is why casual players all hated Melee.

    Oh wait…

    • It’s like you’re TRYING to miss the point.

      • The point is that smash can appeal to both ‘party’ and ‘tourney’ players without sacrificing the enjoyment of either. it was proven by Melee, which achieved that.

        People like you, for some spiteful reason, feel satisfaction when a game has less and less options and gameplay mechanics available for everybody.

  38. I am a SF player, and that’s what we did outside of the tier list. We sent capcom our suggestions, and they looked at what we wanted. Turns out Ultra became a great game. Go figure.

  39. Most competitive players, even those who strictly play melee, love the Smash Series because they love Smash. They want to see the game become the best it can be on all fronts. Being complacent and letting Nintendo design the game they want won’t optimize it for every player base. Sure, it’s rude to hate on what we’ve seen of the game (I’m certainly willing to give it time myself), but nothing great ever happened through doing nothing. Now is the critical time in development when we have to say “this is what we want, and this is why we think it should be in the game.” The fact is that right now, the game looks restricting. Options are limited, and it doesn’t feel like a game of its own. I don’t see a reason why we shouldn’t strive to make this game the best it can be.

  40. How about instead of bickering with each other, you guys get together and send some feedback to Nintendo. Talking about it here isn’t going to change anything. The game does not come out until Holiday 2014, so there is still time for some development tweeks.

    I think it would be a great thing if all of the people who were invited to the invitational sent a signed letter to Nintendo with their HONEST and CONSTRUCTIVE feedback.

    And for those who are making comments about the game before even playing it, go to a participating Best Buy and try the game out for yourself! Then if you have problems with it, I advise you to do the same: send a letter to Nintendo with your HONEST and CONSTRUCTIVE feedback.

    You could also all get together and make a petition. Never underestimate the power of the voice of the people.

  41. Here’s what I think, the invitational was made so Sakuria could see how people react to things and adjust to it, he said multiple times, none of this is final, we could change all of it

  42. Every time I want them to toss out everything. But whenever I say it I mean give a new roster; a new paint job, not toss out the hemi for an everyone no feelings hurt hybrid engine.

  43. Megaman might not be low tier, I mean he has a ranged meteor smash, thats pretty fucking terrifying, it is a brand new character after all so certain elements might still be hidden.

    Also, just because old mechanics like wavedashing and L-cancelling aren’t present doesn’t mean new mechanics won’t be found that equal or raise the competitive nature of the game. Just cos you can’t glide across the stage doesn’t mean it won’t have something else.

    My biggest confusion is….guys this isn’t even my final form. This is still not a finished game and there are tweaks that occur throughout the whole experience, I don’t suppose we actually saw if Link did indeed get meteor properties on his down air on the early frames, there is still so much unknown that a judgement must always be aware that this is not the final product. It astonishes me a single experience is considered by a select few to be a worthwhile examination as checking priorities, frames and weight among other things takes quite an extensive check.

    New mechanics can be found after the games release by even a year, there are still things people come up with that shock us at tourneys be it brawl or melee, the crowds just staring “I didn’t know they could do that!”

    To summarise: guys, we are still in the dark about the competitive nature of this game, we can’t confirm anything until its extensive. Maybe DACUS wasn’t found because they changed how you perform it, hm?

  44. I would like to give my two cents in this whole matter. It might not contribute anything, but I’ll just say something nonetheless.

    I am admittedly a casual player, and I occasionally go competitive if I feel like in both Melee and Brawl. I think it’s proof that I’m not that big on the competitive scene if it took me until Brawl’s release to even realize that wave-dashing and L-cancelling existed in Melee. I didn’t care if I can’t do that in Brawl if it took me that long to realize those mechanics existed in Melee, and I played Melee since it’s release. Any advanced techniques I found in Brawl, I’ll just use it regardless if I’m casual or competitive; I found it and it helped me, why wouldn’t I use it? I have fun all the same, when random tripping doesn’t cause great rage. That is my number one complaint in Brawl and so glad that was taken out in SSB4.

    I will concede that Brawl has it’s problems and it’s slowness really turns off people. It’s just that I played Brawl more than Melee because 1) My faves aren’t in Melee, which is putting me off of Melee despite being better and 2) Kirby is not garbage like he is in Melee (I couldn’t win a match with Kirby even if I do my absolute best with him, casual or competitive). I will concede that this game is beginning to look like Brawl 2.0 (even though it is believed to be between Melee and Brawl, it’s certainly leaning towards Brawl, maybe more on 64, which to me felt like the absolute middle of Melee or Brawl). Maybe the final version may have new advanced techniques to use, or old ones done differently (I haven’t played the demo so I wouldn’t know). I’ll still have fun all the same.

    I know I’ll be ignored or called stupid, but this bickering between the competitive and casual community is really getting on my nerves.

    • First, if you like Kirby so much, why not go back to 64? Kirby was a god in that game! Hands down the best character in the hands of a mediocre competitive player, and really the only thing that can stand up to him is a very high-level Pika.

      Also, 64 isn’t exactly what you’re implying. Brawl shares absolutely nothing with 64, except maybe a similar general speed. The thing is, 64 is much faster because of dash-dancing and (everybody had huge DDs in that game) and general crisp movement options, and can even be faster than Melee in some senses because a cancel reduced the end-lag for EVERY attack to a mere 4 frames, while the fastest cancelled move in Melee is 7 frames, with most being higher.

      And I’m not even going to mention the combos in 64… you thought Melee had combos? You have no idea…

  45. Why is rosalina in bottom tier. She’s a OP character when you master her. She’s a top or high tier character.

    • I don’t know why she is either. From what I’ve seen and heard from competitive players, she’s a high-top tiered character. This list is very far from the truth from the lists I’ve seen from others.

  46. I don’t know how the game plays, but after comparing some gameplay videos, I realized that the movements, the animations and the hits are more similar to Brawl’s, but at the same time, the way how they react is more similar to Melee, only slower. This game is like a mix of the 2 games.

    I am a melee player, I usually use Kirby and my friend uses Samus, we played for 10 years and now our level is pretty high. We learned playing by ourselves, never did a tournament (only once, we did a small Brawl tournament but not too much seriously, and none of us won, my defeat was similar to the final of the smash event, better % but killed in sudden death); for this reason, we don’t use often all those technical moves, like the wavedashing or all those tricks, we play more instinctively than technically. I think that playing too much technically is not fun, but I think that having the option to play technically is a must.

    From personal experience, I had fun with Smash 64, i had LOT of fun with Melee, but wen we moved to Brawl, we started getting angry, playing seriously and not having fun anymore. After I realized that, I decide to never play Brawl again, because if I play a couple of hours every 1/2 week/s, I don’t want to get angry, I prefer having fun.

    By the gameplay videos, the new Smash seems to be fun, I can’t explain why, but unlike Brawl, this new game entertains me. Brawl bores me even watching a match, this game not.

    ———

    By the way: we play Melee with and without items: the thing is that we play competitive in both modes; Playing competitive with items and stage hazards is possible (in Melee at least, in Brawl not because they had too much influence); we disabled the power star, the maxim tomato and the heart container, we put the item low (not very low) and the game is perfectly playable. There is a bit of luck factor in the game if you play with items, but if they’re balanced, the most skilled player si still the one who wins.
    Recently we enabled the hammers, and we found new strategies with those; they’re risky to get because they can break, but even if they will break, they do a hit first, so usually we use the hammer as bait and depending on the situation, the hammer can also be a downgrade: you can’t do double jumps and b+up, and using particular techniques it is also possible to grab a player who has the hammer, trowing him in a pit… or if you are very precise, you can also STOP the hammer, I did it several times using Kirby’s aerial a+down.

    As a player who plays with items on, I can say from what I saw that this time items seem more balanced; Shadow and the final smashes are still annoying, but everything else can perfectly be used with strategy.
    I noticed from the Nintendo tournament, that the only player who has been able to use the items with a bit of strategy has been the Kirby user, and everyone else was a perfect noob with the items: I think that’s a result of playing alwais with them disabled.

    ———-

    FFA don’t require skills:
    false.
    If 2 players fight eachother and a third player waits far from the battle and kills both of them at the end, it’s fault of the 2 stupid players who hadn’t noticed that there was a camper, giving him a free advantage in percentage.
    Most of the player in that tournament aren’t used to play in FFA mode, they were good with the moveset but their strategy was completely wrong. Once again, only the Kirby played with a bit of strategy, except in the megaman stage where he sucked hard.

    ———-

    Kirby in Melee is low tier, on par with Bowser:
    False.
    I used Kirby for 10 years, I can say that he’s hard to master, but once you master him, he’s easily stronger than characters like Mewtwo, Bowser, DK, Link, Yoshi etc. (I consider Kirby a mid tier, slighty above Link, slighty below Ness; Samus that’s my main rival is a mid-high – in the internet charts, Kirby is heavily underrated and Samus is slighty underrated, but almost correct).
    Anyway, the strength of a character depends on the player, but overall the character that I listed above are the onces with who it’s harder to win; all of them have their weakness and strength points (ex. Yoshi’s side smashes, Bowser’s low % kill ability).

  47. Pingback: Super Smash Bros. Invitational Tournament E3 2014 All Footage [Video]

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